refreshing. are >> you are great pride for depend on new four great analy analysis.our g >> i depend on them for we there's. good night from new york.orrow. we will see you tomorrow. deduc. neil: i think that of the most significant quote of the day, the president's way of saying those tax rates for wealthy either go up or -- bring on the fiscal cliff, welcome, i am neil cavuto. that is no joke, president making it clear, that he is not blinking on this issue of

raising taxes on the rich. and whereas before we would think revenue was an open question. however you could get about raising that money to get president off rublican's box on raising taxes on rich. he says again, i do not see any other way around it, and anything that comes close to raising amount of money you could raise, simply returning to the clinton era tax rates. that could explain this. look at wall street today, a huge downdraft, continuing what has been a 6% slide, in the markets, since the election last week, charlie gasparino, on all of this. what do you make? >> i think this is bad stuff. if the republican cave, which i don't think they will, i'll tell you why later, and they give in market hates it, you talk about raising taxes on rich that is small businessa file as individual the tell you that is never% of small business -- 97%

of small businesses, don't get affected by this but they employee most people in the country. we're not talks the freelance writers that call themselves a small business. neil: i don't think that the president cares? >> he does not care, this election is worse case, we called this a fiscal cliff scenario, president went to narrow majority but he still wins. and republicans keep the houe, you have a fiscal cliff scenario, and they are emboldened, and republicans say you don't have a mandate, and you have loggerheads, i believe that the fiscal cliff is basically the -- odds on favorite here, not a compromise, republican -- >> would republicans then -- or democrats, play this to their advantage. if you come totten of the year, this is president pulling a pato murray, said we don't get, that thene visit the cliff, and put

pieces back together in the new year, who wins. >> it i already to say, president has a cheerleading squad, called the mainstream media, they will say it is republican's fault, it is fascinating he got 50%f the vote with the media establish. you know republicans will make a compelling argument, you are one that will not -- we have 2% growth. and you are forcing us. neil: less growth now than in 2 years ago when he wanted to extend it because the enomy was too iffy. >> great point, you want to slow it down more. neil: he does not see it that way. >> you know, economics is not his strong point, it has never been, he probably never took the classes. >> but what happens? did he lay it town today? is that why markets got spooked. not only is he sticking to his tax hike, but he spelled it out

there has to be a rate hike, i'm not going for a limited deduction. >> traders are smart, how many more times are you going to brent money, bernanke is out of the game, right now have you growth through economy growth, if you want earnings to grow, you need economy growth, if the president is going to destimulate the economy, which is what he is doing with a tax increase, just over fairness. you know, i never called president obama a socialist, i have been on shows that people made me say this, but think about what he does, he is saying i don't care about the economy or unemployment, i just want to achieve my overall aim, that is to expand the size of government. neil: we know he is putting much more emphasis, his idea of a planned approach on revenues than on spending.

progressive i talk to does not matter. they talk about waste, fraud and abuse program, as far as they go. >> they are so tunnel vision, they think that bill clinton raised taxes and automatically the economy to off, that did not happen. neil i know the gardener of the white house, their thinking is, wall street hates us, so woot has done great since we came into offers. >> that is not wall street. neil: and gardner knows, and said, look they can bitch all they want. we have been good for wall street. >> we have printed money, we have not been good for wall street,by should point out average investors are not in this market, they are afraid of this market. neil: you think they will be more agreed now? >> would you put your money in in market, knowing that fed is done. your only chance for an improving market some sort of a

growth, and president says, i will destimulate the economy when i have 2% growth. you know, far be it from me. neil: that is closest you will come it financial advice. >> if they get a good budget deal. market could to up to 20,000, i don't know. eu. >> what is a good deal. neil: thank you, buddy, charlie gasparino. former minnesota governor. now financial service round table president ceo. governor, maybe charlie and i were over reading the president's remarks, but i heard in them, through them and talking with surrogates today, it is a rate hike orin nothing, what do you make? >> it early in the discussions, and everyone has to put out first marker and negotiation, it is concerning because the clock is ticking, i hope that president signalled a marker. neil: i don't know he was, i don't know he was that is -- you

know why, because people, the gardner i was telling charlie bthey feel they look like they ran away from republicans with tails between their legs two years ago by agrees to extend bush tax rates and now that he has won the reelection, he is just not going to did it. >> look we wan we a constructive bipartisan solution, and republicans have said they are willing to put revenues on the table. not rate increases but deducts credits and being reduced. and president said signalled high will open the door on entitlement, there are at least contours there. right now, i hope they are posturing, they will get to serioususiness of a common point. neil: you think about it the common point, on some of the big pictures, next year event.

now we have to to something to get you through december 31, and there in lies the rub. a president, who really is sticking to you know he might be open -- bute is sticking to this tax hike, that is a nonnegotiable point, do you believe him, when he said there is no rralistic way to raise the amount of money you can hike your taxes via returning to the old clinton rates? with deductions, closing loopholes? that money just is that there that there would to be zap them by returning back to 90s? >> well, it depends in part on how far you are willing to go with limiting or reducing, and i think i heard in clip, you played that president said it would be difficult to do. i don't think he said it would be impossible. neil: you are a half full glass guy, i admire that, but i did not get the same hopeful vibes out of that.

>> other oion, i am working with financial service round table, our position, if you cannot get a dial by end of december at least have go judgment to do a temporary extension to buy yourself time to do the longer term more structural fix. at the very least they have the last-ditch ability to have an extension to buy more time. this is not ideal but it may be necessary. it may be tude prudent. neil: thank you very much. we want to hear from you. we'll put some of your tweets on the air. >> should republicans back away from social issues and just stick to focussing on the economy? send us your tweets. >> and meanwhile you heard about this, we've been covering this. storm victims from sandy, homes

destroyed. yet, you know, bank -- you still have a mortgage. and have to keep paying it. do they? judge napolitano on that, after this. ve lately. but because of business people like you, things are beginning to get rolling. and regions is here to help. making it easier with the expertise and service to keep those wheels turning. from business loans to cash management, we want to be your partner moving forward. so switch to regions. and let's get going.

together.

>> we got off the phone with bank of america, they told us they can only freeze the mortgage for 30 days, we do not know what shaping with that. >> staten islander, michelle, telling me, she is frustrated her bank is not helping more after her home was destroyed. not as if bank of america did not know what was going on there. thousands of others, in the same ship, judge napolitano on if banks of obligated to show

compassion. hhe is the steven king of all things historic, do banks have that power? or do they have to be -- >> well, my heart goes out to them all in long island. and the jersey shore that suffered. but if you borrow money from a bank, you owe them money back even if the collateral for that loan has been destroyed, if mrs. zito has a mortgage with bank of america, and her house is now uninhabitable, what can she do? she is walk away, let the bank demolish the house, and rebuild,. neil: her credit is destroyed. >> it is destroyed. the point is. there are times when they do exercise compassion, but there is no way to compel them to, you

have to pay that mortgage every 30 days no matter your situation. neil: do you think there was a storm, and it made -- made thousands of homes uninhabitable, maybe we'll give it 9 days 90 days. >> you know for a bank the side of bank of america it might be a good usiness decision, you want them back as customers, you want other customers to like you and stay with you, maybe they will. but can mrs. zito go before a judge in new york, and say keep the bank at bay? she cannot. neil: bank of america declined -- they did follow-up on my interview, we saw this segment that aired about one of our customers, michelle zito, want you to know we're already left her husband a couple messages

we're going to offer them additional assistance and explain insurance claim process, we know these are difficult times for some of our customers in northeast, an and -- and are offering -- i have no idea what that said? bottom line,sumedsounds like bso me. >> mrs. zito may have mortgage insurance and does not know it. neil: is that their way of saying -- legally you are right, but you know, a great gain to say we'll sort it out, we'll give you 90 or 120 days. >> bank of america would be better off showing combat, let her -- comp path compassion, lee repair, and rebuild her house. the bank would have a better piece of collateral.

>> or they lost that woman and friends and anyone that is watching, they look heartless and aloof. >> mr. potter. neil: the fact that you supported that illegal stance of theirs, makes you mr. potter too. >> unbelievable, i would like to have his money. it is almost christmastime, speaking of it's a wonderful life, a great historic movie. neil: yes. thank you judge. >> thank you, neil. neil: we have a lot more coming up, including you heard about twirjytwinkies and the folks whe them, they could begun. the ceo of hostess is saying that the unions are forces, that the unions are forces, forcing t before copd... i took my son fishing every year.

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neil: when i first heard about this, i said no way in 4ebg this coul-- no way inheck that coulds could not just die on the vine. but they may be forced to shut down. the ceo is here with us, you came on in february to avoid this, why are we at this point. >> it is unfortunate, that -- but where we are now. is that the majority of our employees would like to us go forward and survive. we have a minority percentage of our employees that belong to the bakers union, went that group, they are picket -- within that group they are picketing the company,. neil: they say put this on them. cutbacks and benefits on them,

what do you say? >> not true, the proposal we made, particularly on wage concessions apply to all employees,. neil: not just on them. >> absolutely, in fact we asked them to accept is same thing that teamster's union, our largest union approved, i guess if they aring iing is asking for anything, they want to be treated deficiently. neil: they must. they must realize now you are serious. this is going to push you over the edge. then what? >> you know, i think we issued a press release today, explaining that we have 36 plants we closee 3 this week because of the strike, of 33 remaining at 14 of those, there are not enough people crossing that picket line from the bakers to maintain normal operations, if by 5 :00 tomorrow, friday morning we'll did to the judge, and file a

wind down plan that is a liquidation, sell-off bits and pieces, trade names, a industry over capacity, we'll try to sell plants, and no guarantee, there is no guarantee that buyer would be a union shop or give a contract better than we're offering. neil: is it a problem with the whole health food craze? >> do not agree with that, i heard that, if that is true, you would not have chocolate company or doughnut shops, they are success full businesses. neil: i would put twinkies as part of the food pyramid, there are a lot of those, you could package those for 20r 30 years. >> reporter: . >> we don't have that shelf life. neil: what is it. >> about 30 days. >> i don't buy that. >> i am not saying you can't test it. neil: i think it is like lost in space. >> if that were true we could

survive a 50 day strike. >> but you can envision a scenario where they will begun. >> absolutely. neil: the cynic looks at this, some bakers say that is what rayburn wanted to do, break up the company. that is what he was brought in for, chop up it, sell a profit and leave. >>l nothing in my history would suggestion that, for 29 years i have done turn around work that means you fix it, it emerges it does well. that is what i do, i am not a liquidate or. neil: they do turn things arou, right some pieces do go on to survive. >> that is never my focus, i am looking at a solution that is wholistic for the company, that has been my focus, everyone can quibble back and forth and look at history say did you this and that we're beyond that right

now, we're where we are, we have one shot. right? to go forward. i have to the picket line today is aside from bakers crossing the line, they are crossing in 13 of plants. the other 13 are not. so, i have people on that picket lean who generally believe one of three things, they think there is a buyer who will come in buy the plant and give them a better contract, that is not true there is no buyer waiting in the wings, two, they think that we're coming back with a better offer because we have the wherewithal to do it, that is not happening. i have a third group, that says, i just want to liquidate. i am tired of it, i am never going to reach that third group. that is what they believe, they are okay with putting all 18,000 people out of work, but first 2 groups, hopeful between today and tomorrow they will understand, that this is the end of the rd, this is unemployment at this point for

18,000 people. neil: i hope is works out for the find folks and all folks who love your stuff, greg rayburn, hostess brands president and ceo. in the meantime is the grand old party giving up on the tea party? the folks who made them a majority in the house now getting all but kicked out of power plays in the house, the tea party-backed senator is is not liking it. look, if you have copd like me, you know it can be hard to breathe, and how that feels. copd includes chronic bronchitis and emphysema. spiriva helps control my copd symptoms by keeping my airways open for 24 hours. plus, it reduces copd flare-ups.

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72 halftime, is it me or do republicans just like getting throttled. when it comes to the tea party to whom they own a reat dial,

they are kind of giving them the shaft, and closing them out of a lot of key been negotiations, some tea partiers are agovernment, and say that -- adwaraghast at that. utah republican senator issue tapper tarp favorite mike lee is joining me. what happened to tea party? >> well, this movement this conservative grassroots movement this started in 2009 is alive and well. we've had more people join our ranks this time with this election, it will continue to keep growing it will keep growing as long as those who were elected under this mind set, continue to stick on the principles and say this government is big enough, and that we do not have a revenue problem we have a spending problem in washington. neil: i do not hear it out of the leaders, you are closer to

this than i will be, but judge from appointment made in the house from reads of riot acrom speaker boehner to republican groups to many tea partiers, message of get in line, what do you make of that? >> it may be true. it is hard to read too much into those statements and hard to come to firm conclusions right now to what they mean. those of us who owe our election to this movement. who understand that our constituents expect to us hold government spending, need to stay true to our principles and remember why we came here. neil: well, some -- i can understand maybe some disappointment at tea party senate candidates who seem to grab defeat from the jaws of what looked like victory. i can understand frustration on part of some republicans, but they forget the tea party that brought so many of you to power and house provided 80 something

odd you know restless revolutionaries to two took over the place. i am wondering some tea parties are chafing about it? >> we have to remember, neil, that we had 3 u.s. senators elected this year, under the republican party, all three can be closely identified with the tea party movement. and we suffered from losses this year. but, personally, those people who lost, who were expected to win, lost after they deviated from this basic message that federal government is too big, too e expensive. neil: you hit a good point, do you fear of what the candidates appeared turned to social issues that tea party message got blurred? however you feel on the social issue. >> the message certainly got

blurred. that not to say that search tea party did not care about social issues, i am a tea partier and i do care. but this is taking too much of our money, and throwing more money at it, raising taxes is not going to help it is going to make matters worse. the term revenues is a loaded term. if the question is, am i in favor of raising taxes? in favor of looking at this as a revenue problem, absolutely not. but there are a lot of ways to solve this problem. i'm certainly in favor of extending all current tax rates while we undertake an effort to reform the tax code comprehensively. neil: the president seemed to be as unequivocal as i ever heard him, he seemed to say, it has to

berate hikes, bring the top two rates back to what they were. during bill clinton's time. he said, when it comes to shaving deductions and allowances you could not raise the amount of revenue this seems to be a nonstarter for him. >> important to remember since the election, he has not said once he will veto anything, that does not involve a rate hike for the top tax payers, deep down he knows -- just like the rest of us. neil: i thought he did say, that he would veto anything without a hike on the 250 and overcrowd. >> jay carney m have said that, i have not heard president say that, since the elect, maybe that is splitting hairs i don't know, but if we do that if reraise rates we will kill

700,000 jobs. those will not be ceo jobs, those are people who are living paycheck to paycheck. neil: he feels that maybe democrats are cocky and self ashired they are going full throttle with this what do you think? >> the fact they might go full not olnot old that. does not mean we should surrender, i intend to sticking to the principles, i am confident there are ways to compromise and find common ground to help us avoid the fiscal cliff, but it is not to surrender and raise taxes when we know it is going to make matters worse, if will make matters worse for the poorest among us. >> thank you senor. >> thank you. neil: do you remember pap pa john ceo who went out on a limb,

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about standing up for a business owner that was bold enough to shell testers, and -- to tell investors and american people that obamacareill hurt profits, he was really. neil: he was just saying this health care thing, attached is going to cost a lot of money. and boy they let him have it, it was like every friend of the president, almost like every democrat in the country avoided papa john's, how big do you think it got? ho are you doing now to bring the business back or can you? >> well, you know, i think that, you know it did spread like wildfire when the left did call for a boycott, they have a thing they like to do, if i don't agree with it, then boycott it. you know obama is not my 5 rit president, and the ceo of dreamworks is one of his biggest

donors but you don't see me not watching dreamworks movies because of it. neil: you know that is a very good point, very, very good point, continue. >> thank you, i appreciate that, this is bigger than papa johns, other companies have come under same scrutiny, there is olive garden and red lobster. neil: you have to lack list them all -- black list them all? they all promised to make adjustment and either hourly workers or numbers to get around the higher cos, do we stop going to all these places? >> right. and this is like do we take all of the companies that have donated large amounts of money to obama and stopoing to those companies too? this does not make sense. and you know, so what we're doing is -- >> you know, would you draw the line on a barbara streisand concert though. >> i probably would draw the line on a barbara streisand

concert. >> you know, i was -- i was thinking ahead of you coming on, we might think twice, a lot of ceos might, i hope they don't, but, because, i it i one thing not to like the ceo or company but from chick-fil-a and all other businesses when we go after them and economically try to make them suffer for their opinions, that is not good. >> it does nothing positive for the economy. one thing we want to take note of, one thing that left likes to push as far as rhetoric, you saw it with the elect, mitt romney hates the poor, considers hate the poor, if you check out event on facebook, national papa john appreciate day, you see we're specifically advocating, if you are in a financial position to do so, buy a pizza for a homeless person, someone down on their luck or out of work. you know as conservatives we did not believe in redistributing

the wild, charity should come from the citizens of the community and not the government. neil: well put, justen charters very much, think about power we're giving a lot of folks who could economically penalize someone for just expressing their economic point of view. always find it interesting, political progra% weighing, bute left -- persuasion but the lt seems to -- the right a -- what is this? i digress. when we come back. retail sales, are falling. right ahead of christmas. they are falling. [ malannouncer ] it'that time of year again. time for cii price rewind. because your daughter really wants that pink castle thing. and you really don't want to pay more than you have to.

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neil: this is awkward, bad timing. ahead of holiday season. ino, sales were down, interrupting what was an improving trend of consumers, retail analyst, we have on this, with us today. liz, let's begin with you. some try to say, they blame it on sandy, but maybe that was for the end ofo october, this is a respect some more must be going on. >> you think about it the joke on wall street is merry christmas recessionary new year, ha, ha. neil: do they say it like that? >> yes, 4 out of 10 miss their

sales estimates, you see buildings and supplies go down by 2%, and housing recovero track, you have to say to yourself, something else is at work. neil: what is it? >> you are right, consumers are facing longstanding headwinds, we have minimal income growth, and very minimal employment punes and we look at third quarter growth, if we parse out one time purchases of the iphone 5, and tent up demand for auto sales, and ring prices of gasoline, the trend in third quarter of not robust, then 3 consecutive months of negative retail sales in second quarter, it is likely that consumer reality is somewhere in between. real -- -- less than 1% growth. neil: people are trying to read into this, that consumers are

looking ahead and saying this whole cliff thing, that whole, you know, teetering thing, i'm not going to be too much into a buying thing? >> right, we look went past few weeks with university of michigan, consumer sentiment this came out, it is a 5 year high. and consumer still -- about current conditions and 6 months down the road feeling the best they have felt in a long time, other pin -- point. neil: i don't mean to interrupt you but we have to fix your microphone, i don't mean to be rude. >> lizzy, she seems to say, overall consumer confidence numbers are looking good, maybe -- >> that is important point, and housing you know, slight recovery. but you know, i tell you something, i don't top sound like a debbie downer but i watch what the consumer is doing, and retail companies, and they are moving earlier, the advance retail sales for thanksgiving, and you know, there is a big

debate the economists, now they do it prethanksgiving days ahead. you know, but, the big point, you know hurricane sandy that will create gdp growth, no. to my mind, hurricane sandy hit a part of the u.s. as big as western europe to say it will cause gdp growth down the road during regrowth is so wrong that is like taking water out of one end of the swimming pool and putting it to the other end of the swimming pool, you cannot hear a rebuild as economic growth, watch out for that. neil: do you think this will be a good holiday shopping reason? >> i do think it will be up about 4%. and if you listen we're in middle of retail earning season, retailers that reported last week, all they could focus on was negative effect out of the

storm, those reporting this week have really sounded much more optimistic, new york city has bounced back and they are encouraged. neil: but you know home depot and store like that i could see. >> not just home depot this is michael kore and saks. neil: what do you engine. >> going back to hurricane sandy. likely that we will see next few months skewed by this data, but we're seeing anomalies, builds material was down thi month, we should have seen a large increase as people bought plywood preparing, follow be difficult to parse out underlying momentum whether or not -- >> what about the psychological part, people have all of a sudden recognized i need on get a generate or, they are less declined to buy? >> there is a little bit of

that, we're coming off as we mentioned a 5 year high of consumer confidence, that is is it built to housing market, and consumers feel more confident. >> last week, what are they telling you. >> we're running out of a very shortened road already, but because of other spending policies, at the cfo level, companies have pulled back to investment spending for a reason, they are ming jobs overseas and spending there. >> consumers can change their spending pat owne pattern on a i think they are oblivious of the fiscal cliff. neil: i think you are right about it. laurie, i'm wondering, let's say we go over that cliff, we en the year without an agreement, and it goes, holiday season will begun, but what does that portend for next year?

>> when consumers wake up and they have less money coming in through paychecks that will affect how people shop, but when you are in a theor theory rhett- theory it call phase. >> i have to say, again and again. when you see companies, blaming sandy. like chrysler, and gm, and saks and you know we noted michael ed mike kors. neil: why do the do that? >> a y2k blame game. neil: a weak excuse. >> right, they take it for a reason as cover. i think. >> remember also, that there is a seasonality, behind christmas and after school sales halloween has third largist, for a lot of

the nation we skipped those, that will add additional volatility and skew the numbers. neil: or delay pent-up buying for christmas. >> for halloween candy, you know right, could you arg wha argue t i mised in halloween i want to make up for. >> we could see that there, and housing starts and rebuilding, but whether or not this contributes to growing the economy that is the big question. neil: laurie you sound optimistic on overall economy environment. >> when like to major retailers that reported in october, that ended saturday, they actually had a better month than september, up 5%, retailers from target, and nordstroms, it seems to be confined to two week, i think it will be a bit of destruction, and a blip, but i think they will come back just given improving strength we've seen over last few months. >> all right, ladies thank you all, great, perspective, remember what i said there that

world. >> when we come back. a lot of you keep tweeting us, and say, neil, you never post our tweets, we're getting tweeting upset, that is changing, i hear you, all your tweets, even the awful ones about me, you think that camera adds pounds, i don't know. more after this. ♪ ♪

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neil: i promised we would let you know, . we have some good tweets should republicans back away from social issues and stick to the muddy issues? they need to be fiscly conservative. a moral issue is individual decision look at the map of the red and blue states and the women turn out social issues "follow the money." >> another email. the g.o.p. should stick to the core issues of small government, a state's rights don't change the message. focus on deliveries but republicans should not back away of social issues but at the size capitalism and moral support. >> if they don't compromise house can they change the tarnished image? neil: bulls sides have to do